鈥� 鈥� is a hard act to follow. Todd Phillips鈥� dark, Scorsese-inspired character study about the Batman villain made over a billion dollars at the box office, , dominated the cultural discourse for months and created a new movie landmark.

It wasn鈥檛 for everyone, but it got under people鈥檚 skin.

Knowing that it was a fool鈥檚 errand to try to do it again, Phillips and Phoenix pivoted, or rather, pirouetted into what would become 鈥� .鈥� The dark and fantastical musical journey goes deeper into the mind of Arthur Fleck as he awaits trial for murder and falls in love with a fellow Arkham inmate, Lee, played by Lady Gaga. There is singing, dancing and mayhem.

If Phillips and Phoenix have learned anything over the years, it鈥檚 that the scarier something is, the better. So once again they rebelled against expectations and went for broke with something that鈥檚 already sharply divided critics.

As with the first, audiences will get to decide for themselves when it opens in theaters on Oct. 4.

鈥淗OW ARE YOU GOING TO GET JOAQUIN PHOENIX TO DO A SEQUEL?鈥�

Any comic book movie that makes a billion dollars is going to have the sequel talk. But with 鈥淛oker鈥� it was never a given that it would go anywhere: Joaquin Phoenix doesn鈥檛 do sequels. Yet it turned out, Phoenix wasn鈥檛 quite done with Arthur Fleck yet either.

During the first, the actor wondered what this character would look like in different situations. He and the on-set photographer mocked up classic movie posters, like 鈥淥ne Flew Over the Cuckoo鈥檚 Nest鈥� and 鈥淵entl鈥� with the Joker in them and showed them to Phillips.

鈥淪ometimes you鈥檙e just done with something and other times you have an ongoing interest,鈥� Phoenix said. 鈥淭here was just more to explore. 鈥� I just felt like we weren鈥檛 done.鈥�

So Phillips and his co-writer Scott Silver got to work on a new script, one that leaned into the music in Arthur Fleck鈥檚 head. Then his dreary Arkham life turns to Technicolor when he meets and falls for Lee, a Joker superfan.

鈥淛oaquin Phoenix is not going to do a line drive. He鈥檚 not going to do something that鈥檚 fan service,鈥� Phillips said. 鈥淗e wanted to be as scared as he was with the first movie. So, we tried to make something that is as audacious and out there and hopefully people get it.鈥�

LADY GAGA FINDS LEE鈥橲 VOICE, AND LOSES HER OWN

One decision that鈥檚 already sparking debate is casting someone with a voice like Lady Gaga鈥檚 and not using that instrument to its full power. Phillips, who was a producer on 鈥淎 Star is Born,鈥� wanted someone who 鈥渂rought music with them.鈥� But Lee isn鈥檛 a singer.

鈥淪inging is so second nature to me, and making music and performing on stage is so inside of me. Especially this music,鈥� Gaga said. 鈥淚 worked extensively on untraining myself for this movie and throwing away as much as I could all the time to make sure I was never locking into what I do. I had to really kind of erase it all.鈥�

Phoenix, who wasn鈥檛 quite sure what it would be like working with someone who has such a larger-than-life superstar persona, found Gaga to be refreshingly unpretentious and available. And as an actor, he admired her commitment to the character.

鈥淗er power is in singing and singing a particular way,鈥� he said. 鈥淔or her to sacrifice that through character, to do something that people would call a musical, but to not be performing it in the way that would sound best as a singer but to approach it from the character was a very difficult process. I was really impressed with her willingness to do that.鈥�

In addition to writing a 鈥渨altz that falls apart鈥� for the film, Gaga is releasing a companion album, 鈥淗arlequin鈥� on Friday with song titles including 鈥淥h, When the Saints,鈥� 鈥淲orld on a String,鈥� 鈥淚f My Friends Could See Me Now鈥� and 鈥淭hat鈥檚 Life.鈥�

SORRY PUDDIN鈥�, THIS AIN鈥橳 MARGOT ROBBIE鈥橲 HARLEY QUINN

Much like Phoenix鈥檚 Joker isn鈥檛 Heath Ledger鈥檚 or Jack Nicholson鈥檚, Gaga鈥檚 Lee is not the

鈥淲e鈥檙e never going to outdo what Margot Robbie did,鈥� Phillips said. 鈥淵ou have to do something 180 degrees in the other direction.鈥�

Sure, Lee will still casually light something on fire to get some time alone with Joker, but the tumult is more internal. And Gaga threw herself into making Lee something new: A real person, grounded in a reality that came before her.

鈥淚 spent a lot of my time on developing her inner life (which) for me had a lot to do with her storm and what thing was always making her about to explode,鈥� Gaga said. 鈥淭here鈥檚 a particular kind of danger that she carries with her, but it鈥檚 inside and it鈥檚 kind of explosive.鈥�

鈥淒O YOU JUST WANT A BRUTE?鈥�

Brendan Gleeson didn鈥檛 have much hesitation about joining the ensemble. He鈥檇 worked with Phoenix before on 鈥淭he Village鈥� and was in awe of what he鈥檇 done on the first movie.

鈥淗e has an absolute relentless integrity and curiosity and drive,鈥� Gleeson said. 鈥淗e won鈥檛 just plough the same furrow for its own sake.鈥�

But he also didn鈥檛 want to play the simple version of an Arkham prison guard.

鈥淚 said, look, do you just want a brute? Because I鈥檓 not sure I just want to do a brute,鈥� Gleeson said. 鈥淗e wanted something more. We tried to find layers in this guy.鈥�

CREATING MAYHEM

Anyone who has worked with Phoenix knows that he likes to keep things fresh. That may mean something as small as changing the location of a prop or as big as throwing out choreography that you鈥檝e been rehearsing for months at the last minute.

鈥淚 think we both love mayhem and not just in movies but on the set,鈥� Phillips said. 鈥淚t had to feel like anything can happen.鈥�

With the crew 95% the same as the first, everyone was ready to be flexible. Gaga, too, dove right in, suggesting that they sing live on camera.

鈥淚t changed the whole making of the film,鈥� Phillips said. 鈥淲e were not only singing live, we were singing live differently every take.鈥�

THAT鈥橲 ENTERTAINMENT?

Since Arthur killed Robert De Niro鈥檚 talk show host Murray Franklin on live television in the first film, he鈥檚 become a kind of icon and curiosity thanks in no small part to an oft referenced, but never seen, television movie that was made about him. Now, the trial is going to be televised as well.

鈥淯nderneath it all, there鈥檚 this idea of corruption and how everything is corrupt in the system, from the prison system to the judicial system to the idea of entertainment, quite frankly,鈥� Phillips said. 鈥淭his idea that in the States at least, everything is entertainment. A court trial could be entertainment, and a presidential election can be entertainment. So, if that鈥檚 true, what is entertainment?鈥�

NO LONGER A COMPLETE WILD CARD

It鈥檚 easier to be to the insurgent, not the incumbent, Phillips said. Although a Joker film is never going to fly completely under the radar, the spotlight is undoubtedly more intense this time around.

鈥淵ou do feel like you have a larger target on your back,鈥� Phillips said.

While much of the film was made on Warner Bros. soundstages in Los Angeles, the production did go back to New York to film again on the Bronx staircase (which now come up on Google Maps as the Joker Stairs) and outside a Manhattan courthouse. The production staged a massive protest scene, with Gaga, almost concurrently with the as if there weren鈥檛 enough eyes on them already.

Some are also handwringing about the sequel鈥檚 bigger budget and whether it can match the success of the first. But Phillips has learned to take it in stride.

鈥淭here鈥檚 a different amount of pressure, but that just comes with making movies,鈥� he said. 鈥淵ou can鈥檛 please everybody and you just kind of go for it.鈥�

Gleeson has an even sunnier outlook.

鈥淚t has kind of arthouse movie integrity on a blockbuster scale. It鈥檚 great news for cinema, is the way I look on it,鈥� Gleeson said. 鈥淚f these event movies can continue to have depth and can be so conflicting like this one, is we needn鈥檛 worry about the future of cinema.鈥�

SO, IS IT A MUSICAL?

One thing Phillips didn鈥檛 mean to do was ignite a discourse about what is and isn鈥檛 a musical. He鈥檚 just trying to manage expectations.

鈥淧eople go, 鈥榳hat do you mean it鈥檚 not a musical?鈥� And it is a musical. It has all the elements of a musical. But I guess what I mean by it is all the musicals I鈥檝e seen leave me happy at the end for the most part, 鈥楿mbrellas of Cherbourg鈥� not being one of them. This has so much sadness in it that I just didn鈥檛 want to be misleading to people.鈥�